Book Chat: The Gifts of Imperfection

Addi: 0:00

Hey everybody. This is Addison Berry, and you're listening to the Osio Labs podcast. The show that explores the question,"how can we create sustainable businesses that care for people and make the world a better place?" On today's episode, I'm joined by my colleague, Ashley Jones. This is episode number eight, which is a book chat about The Gifts of Imperfection by Brené Brown. Now, this was Brené's third published book and is the one that she recommends for people to start with on her work if you've not read any of her other books yet. It's a book about embracing who we are versus who we think we're supposed to be. She calls it an invitation to the whole hearted revolution. In her words,"choosing authenticity and worthiness. It's an absolute act of resistance". The book covers some of her earlier work on shame and her definitions of a wholehearted life before it dives into 10 guideposts to walk you through some important points to ponder and then act on. And those are: Authenticity. Self-compassion. Resilient spirit. Gratitude and joy. Intuition and trusting faith. Creativity. Play and rest. Calm and stillness. Meaningful work. And then the last is Laughter, song and dance. Let's just dive into it and, and talk about The Gifts of Imperfection. What was your overall impression of this book? And would you recommend it or not?

Ashley: 1:42

I really enjoyed this book and I would definitely recommend it and I feel like I would recommend it to just about anyone,

Addi: 1:54

Mm hmm.

Ashley: 1:54

whether like you feel like you have it totally together and you're not really into self help or, you know, you really enjoy self help books and you're like on this journey. Personal improvement. I feel like there's something in this book for everyone, for sure. I loved it. What did you think?

Addi: 2:15

Yeah, I mean I I loved it. It's I I read this book many years ago And so this was like a rereading for me and I loved it the first time I read it and It's interesting like the whole self help thing because it's certainly You know, I guess the kind of book it is and where you would find it in a bookstore or something like that but I feel like this one is It feels more I don't know The word that comes to mind for me is just real. Like it's less about fixing things on the surface and it's more about. Really digging deep into who you are, in a way that's, it's, it's, I feel like it's more like a psychology or therapy than self help or something, you know, because it's, it's really kind of digs pretty deep, I think, into some really cool things and also still has action items, you know, at the end of each. Guidepost or whatever or something for you to think about or explore a little bit more but yeah, I loved it and it really I feel like so much of the book really resonates for me and In the years since I read it the first time I have Made a lot of changes in my life and I have done a lot of work And so it's really interesting to be like, yep. She's she's she's right like this is

Ashley: 3:30

hmm.

Addi: 3:31

This is like real deal stuff and if you do work on it and change things like it, it just like sort of fundamentally changes the way that you move through the world. So, yeah, I love it. And I, I definitely would recommend it to anybody because it just has some really, even if, and even if you don't read the whole book and take it all in and, and, you know, And jive with the whole thing. I feel like there's something, like you said, there's sort of something in there for everyone. There's going to be some slice of this that you're like, Oh, yeah, I feel what she's saying right there.

Ashley: 4:04

Mm hmm.

Addi: 4:06

because she covers a lot of ground, like in a short. Book, like it's not that long, but it's like a lot of punches.

Ashley: 4:16

Yes, agreed. And she makes it really anecdotal almost, like it doesn't, it doesn't feel preachy or, you know, finger pointy. She is talking to you about her experiences and what she's learned from these experiences. And like, Mm hmm. How she thinks about things and how she's learned from her, you know what I mean? Like, and how it could help you in the future. It doesn't, I really liked it. I like her approach, and I will definitely be reading more of her books. This is my first one, um.

Addi: 4:49

hmm.

Ashley: 4:50

from Brené Brown, but I see that she she's done quite a bit. So

Addi: 4:55

Yeah, there are a lot of like stories and examples a lot of them are from her life but from other people too and that yeah, there's I guess you get this sense of She's looked at this stuff a lot, and she's learned a lot, and she's sharing that with you, yet she also doesn't have it all figured out yet.

Ashley: 5:10

exactly.

Addi: 5:11

Like, she's still bumping around in the dark, too, and it's okay to bump around in the dark about this stuff.

Ashley: 5:20

She even talks about when she slips into her old patterns and what she uses to get herself back on track and it's like, okay, so you don't you don't ever just arrive because I feel like, I feel like, you know, I don't know if other people feel like this, but sometimes I'm just like, man, when can I just like, get there? When can I just be the thing? But it's, you know, I also understand that that is not the case, but it does feel nice to know that it's not the case, even for the people writing the books about it, you know,

Addi: 5:54

Exactly. It's a lifelong journey. Like, it just, it never, yeah, it never ends. You never check the box off and say, Okay, I'm done with the work now.

Ashley: 6:04

right? Yeah,

Addi: 6:05

Yeah. And, you know, she's being pretty real about that.

Ashley: 6:09

definitely.

Addi: 6:12

What was the biggest takeaway from this book for you?

Ashley: 6:16

The biggest takeaway. I think my biggest takeaway was I guess that it's okay to still, to still be working on the work. Like there were different pieces of the book where she would introduce a guide post. And in my mind I would be like, You know, I've worked on this, I

Addi: 6:41

hmm.

Ashley: 6:41

feel, feel pretty good about this section, you know, and she would go on and dig a little deeper and dig a little deeper and then sure enough, something would resonate and I would be like, Ooh, okay. Yep, I still have some ways to go with this one. Like, I'm not, I'm not quite where I thought I was, and that's okay. Like, it's fine and like you said, she gives these little action items at the end. To help you progress in that work and she just feels like you said, just so real. It made me feel like, like I was able to really connect with the material and connect with her and, feel good about my journey also. So,

Addi: 7:30

Yeah.

Ashley: 7:31

I think my, my biggest takeaway was just that, I am still on a journey and that is okay. Like, it is fine.

Addi: 7:39

Nice. Nice.

Ashley: 7:41

Yeah.

Addi: 7:43

Yeah, you know, I, I think, I was trying to think back, and I know I took notes the first time I read this, but I, I couldn't figure out where they were, so, but the first time I read it, I think I was very much like, yeah, look at all these really good points that she has and you know, and that there's a there's a there's a way forward like she Was putting words to things I was feeling

Ashley: 8:09

Mm

Addi: 8:10

and then sort of explaining what that You know giving it context and then sort of like and here's what you can do about it you know and it was just like a little eye opening of Oh, you mean I don't have to just sit here and suffer,

Ashley: 8:26

hmm.

Addi: 8:26

you know, um, it was like, what? And then this time reading it, it was interesting because I feel like the thing I took away from it was how much of our lives and the way that we're raised. And the messages that we are given and the way we're taught our whole lives is so counter to a happy, healthy life. Because all of the things she's talking about in this book are things that we all experience, and our culture, overall, encourages these... Bad things basically

Ashley: 9:09

totally agree.

Addi: 9:11

and, and so it was just sort of like, oh, yeah, everybody's resonating with this because, you know, this is how we are taught to, to move through life. And that sucks. And so reading this this time, I was just, I was like, at the end, I was kind of like, I'm a little bit sad, mad right now. You know, I'm I'm sad that this is so much this is something that everybody can relate to. And I'm a little bit mad that this is, this is the way that we, you know, raise kids and live our in and are taught to live our lives.

Ashley: 9:45

Mm

Addi: 9:45

a, it was like an interesting reaction I had to it this time or not reaction, but you know, it's like the, the thoughts that were coming up for me and I felt, you know, but here she is, she's basically the system's kind of screwed up and you're screwed up because of it. Here's, here's what you can do to help. Yourself going forward and you know, and she definitely refers a number of times throughout the book too about parenting and she's raising kids and also trying to work on this yourself, but then also trying not to pass this on to your kids. Right?

Ashley: 10:16

Right.

Addi: 10:17

it's hard. But anyway, I think that was a big thing that I kind of, Felt from it this time. And I guess so that the takeaway for me is Yes, this is the system we live in and and so everybody can relate to this book, which is why I would recommend it to everybody

Ashley: 10:37

Yeah.

Addi: 10:38

and I really want to be part of trying to change that in the future You know and the first step to helping change that for other people's you have to change it for yourself first Right, it's

Ashley: 10:51

Totally.

Addi: 10:51

put the oxygen mask on first, and so, it's like, all right this work is great for me, and I, there's a lot of insights for me to work on, and this could help make this hopefully not be so needed in the future, you know?

Ashley: 11:08

No, I totally agree. I think this book also helps you recognize where you need the work because some of the things that she brought up, like, I'm trying to think of a good example, In the, in the section where she talks about the the need for certainty. And she was saying like, when she, she realizes when she starts asking the opinions of everybody else before she makes a decision that she's feeling a little vulnerable. And I just never quite connected those two things because I'm definitely somebody who likes to get consensus. So I didn't even know that that was. A thing until she pointed it out, you know what I mean? So, I think definitely, yes, you definitely have to work on yourself first or put the oxygen mask on yourself before you can help everybody else. But like, you also kind of have to know you need the oxygen mask. Like, like, hey,

Addi: 12:09

Totally.

Ashley: 12:11

things are happening and they are not okay.

Addi: 12:13

Right? Totally. Yes. Yes. So much that,

Ashley: 12:18

Yeah.

Addi: 12:19

Yeah, and that's the thing, it's like this book, you're like, you're reading along, like da da da, and you're like, oh, oh, oh, oh, I see,

Ashley: 12:27

so many of those moments, like, oh, well, okay, that is, okay, got it. I didn't know that wasn't okay.

Addi: 12:35

Right, and you're like, but now that you say it, I can see what you're talking about.

Ashley: 12:40

yeah, I'm like, ah, I see why that doesn't quite make sense. Like, maybe that's not the way to go about this thing.

Addi: 12:48

Uh huh.

Ashley: 12:49

Uh huh. Got it. Yeah. Hmm.

Addi: 12:51

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any drawbacks or warnings about this book? Anything you didn't like?

Ashley: 13:00

honestly, not off the top of my head. I don't think I have any warnings or drawbacks because she's not forcing anything down your throat. It doesn't feel abrasive or aggressive. It, you know what I mean? It's kind of like take the pieces that fit and leave the pieces that don't. And I do feel like if you are a human, you probably can take something away from it, you know?

Addi: 13:29

hmm.

Ashley: 13:31

I don't know. What did you think?

Addi: 13:34

You know, I, I think for me, it, it, not a drawback or a thing I didn't like, but a thing, a tendency within myself is, so like, like we said, it's a, it's a short book. It's a pretty easy read in that way but there's a lot of pieces to the puzzle

Ashley: 13:52

Right?

Addi: 13:54

so what I do is I look at that as a challenge of I have to do all of these things right now It's like, you know, so now i'm like i'm whack a mole i'm like i've gotta i've gotta get them all And and so I think just my personality type i'm like, oh, oh, okay Okay, let's let's make a list and let's do all the things And so it's for me to step back and just be like you were saying take The pieces away what are the biggest pieces or the most important things you're taking away and you don't have to do every single thing and it is a lifelong journey and it is sort of a never ending puzzle so you can keep coming back. You don't have to do them all right now and get it right and there is no finish line with it. So I think that just has to do with like different ways of looking at it or personality types and such like that. I don't think that it's the book itself. It does that. But I definitely needed to take a deep breath, like a lot of this is it's good, it's fine, so what are the pieces of this that you do want to think about more? And just leave it at that. Because there's so many things. It's like every time you turn the page, you're like, oh, But wait, there's more.

Ashley: 15:07

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I get that. And I guess I do have a, maybe not a warning in the sense that I was thinking about it before. But because it is a short book, I would just know that there's a lot in that short book. Like,

Addi: 15:25

Mm hmm.

Ashley: 15:26

just read through it in a day and

Addi: 15:29

right, yeah.

Ashley: 15:30

Like, take some notes. There's some, there's some good stuff in there. And you might have to re read it again. Like, there are definitely parts that I had to go back through. so, you know, maybe not a warning, but just, like, you know, friendly nudge if you pick up the book.

Addi: 15:46

Heads up.

Ashley: 15:47

Heads up. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Addi: 15:49

Yeah. Agreed, yeah. I didn't jam through it in a day. Sectioned it out, and I was, kind of thinking about it, like, Whoa. Okay. Because, yeah, it's a lot of information, and if you read it all together, like, bam, in a couple of hours, I think it's too much information for your brain to hold onto.

Ashley: 16:04

Yeah, I feel like you're less likely to be able to implement any of the changes or actions because they're so there's so much, you know,

Addi: 16:14

Yeah. So this book is set up with guideposts and do you have any in particular that stood out to you?

Ashley: 16:22

Yes. So I would say the ones. That stood out to me, like you need to work on that more. Definitely the self compassion and perfectionism piece. I don't think I quite realized. Well, I mean, I think I've kind of always known that I can be a little bit of a perfectionist. But then when she talks, she started talking about like the life paralysis and how, all of that can really hinder you in just moving forward in life because you're so conscious of each step and not wanting to make a mistake and not wanting to fail and not wanting to, you know, be perceived a certain way, that really resonated, really deeply. definitely that one. And the creativity one also, She says in the book, if you want to make meaning, you must make art, and when you make creating a priority, everything is better. And I was just like, man, that's true.

Addi: 17:32

Mm.

Ashley: 17:33

I feel the most like myself when I get to just. Be freely creative and you have to make space for that. Like it's not a thing where you can continuously just put it off or you'll never do it. Like you have to. Make time for it. And she talked about making time to do art with her kids and how important that is for her and her kids. And I was just like, man, that's definitely a piece that I feel that I know, like, I tell myself all the time, I want to write more. I want to paint more. I want to, you know, but it just really highlighted the fact that I have not made time for it and I should because there are benefits outside of it. Just you know, making a pretty pretty painting. You know, there are really some internal intrinsic benefits there that I am missing out on. And then, letting go of control that one.

Addi: 18:34

Yeah. And trying to be cool. Mm

Ashley: 18:37

yes, and like, I don't think I realized just how in control of myself I am. I feel like I'm a pretty go with the flow kind of person. But she kind of gave, a little snippet about somebody who, never really danced. And, even when tapping their foot, they noticed and stopped and felt really embarrassed. And I'm not quite that bad, I don't mind tapping my foot, but and she talked about how dancing is this very vulnerable, freeing thing. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I don't dance, you know, I don't, I don't do that, unless there's a setting where like everyone is dancing, but I'm not going to just you know, dance in the middle of the living room. And I'm like, why not? You know, but I think it's that, that whole, control thing like not wanting to look a certain not wanting to look too silly like not wanting to do the dance move wrong you know what I mean? Um, so, yeah, I would definitely say those three like stood out the most for me like, whoo, um, not so loud. That's kind of how I felt like. Stop

Addi: 19:50

Don't

Ashley: 19:51

yelling at

Addi: 19:53

Don't you be calling me out like that.

Ashley: 19:55

Right? Yeah. Um, yeah, those, those were definitely my three. What were yours?

Addi: 20:05

So the, the two that stood out to me in particular, one was authenticity and authenticity is something I actively work on cause it's a core value for me. And so it's, it's super, super important in my life. And so I, Been working on authenticity for a long time, but it's particularly on my mind right now because I have been struggling with it lately because I've been, I've been going through, I don't want to, I don't want to say I'm going through changes. I guess what I'm doing, I feel more like I'm uncovering more of who I, who I truly am. But I've sort of built a life around me based on, you know, who I'm supposed to be instead of who I am.

Ashley: 20:53

I totally get it.

Addi: 20:55

And. And so I'm struggling with sharing this, like, who I truly am in this world of who I'm supposed to be. And, and so I'm having this, authenticity struggle. And being like, wow, this is so cool. I'm very, I'm very excited and happy internally, but it's not meshing with my external world 100%. Because I'm a fear, I'm, I'm fearful of rejection of, of who I truly am kind of a thing. So anyway, that one stood out to me because it's, it's a struggle. I feel like I'm very much in the middle of right now. And it was just a good reminder as to why it's so important to me and that I need to, to keep it. Thank you. Doing it anyway. Um, and then the other one for me was meaningful work. Because I've been doing a lot of like in in the meaningful work section She has this whole thing about slash, you know Like being an accountant slash painter or whatever like, you know like like people have these mixes and blends of Who they are and the things that they do and I've been doing quite a lot of that actually I'm writing a novel. I've started doing a bunch of Visual artwork with linocut and things like that I'm exploring a lot Of things, and so I'm, I'm doing all of that stuff and so I'm in that kind of trying to find meaningful work, but in particular, I'm also really, I really want to figure out how to make my day job, this job, more meaningful in that same way, like she talks about in there that you don't need that necessarily in your life, but I want that,

Ashley: 22:34

That's like the dream.

Addi: 22:35

Right and so I mean in this podcast is even a part of that for me, right? Like this the podcast is like because I just feel drawn to these conversations and I think this is super important and interesting stuff And I want to do more of that You know And so and so that whole her whole guidepost on meaningful work really hit home for me of like, oh yeah, It's important to feel like you're getting up in the morning, and whether it's the paid work you're doing or it's something else, but like there's something that is, that is joyful and meaningful to you, that you're heading into, and like, Making that more and more a part of my life is, I think, I think that's an important thing for me to really work on, and so it was like a little bit of a poke in the butt, you know, and be like, no, yeah, really, really, you need to keep going with that, do that thing and figure it out and don't just be like, oh, you know, whatever, man, like, as long as I'm paying the bills, who cares? Yeah, so I would say those, those are the two for me.

Ashley: 23:38

Yeah, that meaningful work one, that resonated with me too, those slashes, cause I, it's like, yes and yes. Like I would, I would love to have more slashes. And just figure out how to fit it all in. And I think Osio Labs is really cool because there is the flexibility to like add in a podcast. You know, make the work more meaningful for you. I think that's wonderful. Yeah, it's kind of a unicorn.

Addi: 24:11

Yeah, I mean, and ideally we make it more meaningful for everyone, but also, you know, everyone on the team has different things that are meaningful to them. And so, right, it's a matter of us sort of figuring out what all those things are and, you know, what we can and cannot do sort of within the boundaries of, of what we have. I just feel like it's, it's, and it was like one of the quotes in the book, she was quoting from somebody else, who said, Don't ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive

Ashley: 24:51

Yeah.

Addi: 24:52

and I feel like

Ashley: 24:53

I remember that one.

Addi: 24:54

I would really like our company to be that To right like each of us individually need to just do that in our lives but how cool would it be to have a Company that helps us come alive and can be that in the world I don't know It's such a cool concept to me. I'm like, how do we do that? Let's do

Ashley: 25:15

It is. And I feel like we are doing that actively or trying to find the way to do it, you know, we have these avenues for personal projects and spending time to work on something that is meaningful to you and, you know, just coming off of this retreat and trying to make our collective work mean more to us collectively. I definitely feel like we're on a path for sure.

Addi: 25:39

Yeah.

Ashley: 25:41

Yeah.

Addi: 25:43

Yeah. Well, we should probably wrap this up. Do you have any... Last thoughts about the gifts of imperfection.

Ashley: 25:52

I could talk about these 10 guideposts forever but it's definitely a really wonderful book. I enjoyed it a lot. I'm glad you put it on the list because I don't know if I would have found it, but thank you.

Addi: 26:05

Awesome. Yeah. You're welcome. I just love, I love the idea of imperfection being kind of the goal

Ashley: 26:15

Yeah. And like looking at it as a gift.

Addi: 26:18

Yeah.

Ashley: 26:20

Totally. Mm

Addi: 26:21

So I think we all need a little bit of space and grace with that for sure. So

Ashley: 26:29

1000%.

Addi: 26:31

awesome. Well, thanks, thanks for reading the book. Thanks for talking about it. Um, and

Ashley: 26:36

course.

Addi: 26:37

we will, we'll definitely be doing a little bit more Brené Brown. I think our next podcast will be yet another. We'll have a twofer on Brené Brown, I guess. Um,

Ashley: 26:51

Nice.

Addi: 26:51

she's got good things to say.

Ashley: 26:53

She does. Yeah, I'm a fan. She got me.

Addi: 26:58

cool. All right. Well I will talk to you on the next podcast then, because. I think that one's going to be a whole team podcast, so that'll be the first time we have everybody in the company on the podcast at the same time.

Ashley: 27:11

Oh, nice.

Addi: 27:12

Yeah.

Ashley: 27:14

That'll be a fun one.

Addi: 27:16

Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you have questions, comments, or suggestions for what you'd like to hear more about. You can find all of the various ways to reach us on our website at osiolabs.com. That's O S I O L A B S.com. Also, please make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your podcast provider of choice. We'll catch you on the next episode.